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Washington bishops seek stronger catechesis after same-sex marriage vote

 

Voter approval of a Washington state referendum legalizing same-sex marriage was greeted by a call for “real and respectful dialogue in our church” by the organization of Catholics supporting Referendum 74 — and by bishops’ statements their sees to stronger catechesis on traditional and sacramental marriage.

“We are very proud that Catholics around the country followed their consciences rather than the rigid position of the hierarchy, and their voting reflected the spirit of Catholic social teaching,” said the statement from Catholics for Marriage Equality Washington, alluding to other successful popular votes legalizing same-sex marriage in Maine and Maryland.

“Sadly, our bishops chose to ignore both Gospel and pastoral wisdom in their aggressive opposition to civil marriage for all God’s children,” the statement added. “They also failed to stand up for deep Catholic American respect for proper separation of church and state and for simple fairness to all.”

In a statement released the day after the balloting, when it seemed likely the marriage equality law would be ratified 52 percent to 48 percent, Seattle Archbishop J. Peter Sartain said he was “disappointed that so many voters failed to recognize marriage between a man and a woman as the natural institution for the permanent, faithful covenant of love for a couple, for bringing children into the world, and for nurturing and educating those children.”

“Despite the election results, the campaign has been an opportunity for the church to reaffirm its consistent teaching on marriage,” Sartain wrote. “The campaign to preserve marriage as a union between a man and a woman represents a starting point for a long-term effort to educate Catholics about its meaning and purpose. The church offers a vision of marriage and family life that enriches our communities and society and we remain committed to that vision while respecting the dignity of all persons.”

Sartain, Spokane Bishop Blase J. Cupich, Yakima Bishop Joseph J. Tyson, Seattle Auxiliary Bishop Eusebio Elizondo and the Washington State Catholic Conference were high-profile opponents of Referendum 74. [More]

SOURCE

NCR Online

 
 
 
 

222 Comments

  1. David Tolson says:

    I don’t think Catechesis is the answer in this case. You can lead a horse to water but can’t make him drink. Until Catholics experience a conversion of heart and develop a hunger for the Church’s teachings and Its Life, Catechesis can’t be forced upon them. I suspect that is why Our Lord has sent Our Lady to us so much in the last 100 yrs or so, and in the last 30 yrs or so in Medjugorje. A special grace seems to be present there in which most who go there have almost an instant conversion of heart and hunger for our Faith. It is a shame that so many Bishops around the world and especially in the U.S. turned a blind eye to Our Lady in Medjugorje.

    • Aunt Raven says:

      There’s many people don’t trust Medjugorje because it is not officially endorsed by the Vatican. But the endorsed messages of Fatima say essentially the same thing. Keep ALL the commandments, (esp. 3 and 7, 9 & 10) and do penance — at least grieve– for those who don’t.
      And pray for Bishops and priests who teach other than the catechism— only those who follow the Pope are to be trusted and obeyed.

    • Theofile says:

      Agree. Cathechesis is not the answer. It addresses the head and not the heart. Much conversion has taken place through Medjugorje, but the Lord also uses other means. I began reading True Life in God, the work through Vassula Ryden, some 19 years ago, and it brought about my conversion from willful Catholic to an orthodox one. I began to see a whole different purpose to life, a life “in” Him.

  2. Deb in Tucson says:

    Losing the most important election in our lifetimes and the Bishops want to go back to basics now? If they started 4 years ago WHEN THEY SHOULD HAVE, they might have a church well prepared to discern the moral option in this election. But the result was, Catholics voted for the death choice AGAIN. Few bishops said TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE. Now we all live with that. Thanks Bishops for failing to lead clearly AGAIN! It’s a sin.

    • Jim says:

      Indeed, we need better male leadership — both in the Church hierarchy and in society in general.

      • Jim says:

        So, to facilitate this, we need to stop denigrating males and masculinity; if the women are mutinous, the leaders cannot lead.

    • Chris says:

      They are decades too late. The decaying of morality started in the 30-40′s with FDR stacking the supreme court with freemason judges who unleashed pornography on society. The church has been evangelized by the world.

    • New Observer says:

      Deb, the Bishops actually got what they wanted. Diocesan Bishops did not send letters to registered Catholic households (nor did parish Pastors) urging the laity to vote FOR candidates who support biblical values. Their silence demonstrated their support for Obama-Biden to wit: Abortion-on-Demand, (including Partial-Birth Abortion) and the endorsement of gay marriage. How is it that the largest voting block in Massachusetts favored Ted Kennedy for decades who voted for “choice” yet Catholics consistently re-elected him? Yeah, the Bishop’s got their guy –”Obama” who supports the Catholic view of the **Socialism** gospel

  3. Peggy says:

    I wish people could understand the difference between civil union and sacramental marriage. If they cannot understand this and IN GOOD CONSCIENCE enter into civil union, we can only try to persuade, not condemn. Civil unions should have all the LEGAL rights of marriage but not be recognized AS marriage.

    • Jim says:

      Peggy — you provide no justification for your position, but I will provide justification for the opposite position. Giving “civil unions” the status of marriage weakens marriage, which has already been badly battered by the anti-women’s movement (often incorrectly called the “women’s movement”, which is simply a lesbian abortion lobby). Children growing up in insecure homes are less likely to have stable marriages, more likely to abuse alcohol, etc.

      • Jim says:

        So, in summary, civil unions ultimately hurt children, but, indirectly, all of the culture and the society. God help us. You will shortly experience the fruits of your liberal views.

  4. Jim says:

    The article notes: “‘We are very proud that Catholics around the country followed their consciences rather than the rigid position of the hierarchy, and their voting reflected the spirit of Catholic social teaching,’ said the statement from Catholics for Marriage Equality Washington…” When I read this, I wasn’t sure if it was Tony or Florian or MJF who wrote this. You three should take a heads up from this article — you sound identical to these heretics.

    • DENNIS says:

      Morning Jim.

      You probably felt confused about Catholics following their conscience.

      I know you can’t follow your conscience but don’t worry someday you might get one.

    • Tony says:

      Jim, there you go again with the H word, heretic, now your lumping poor MJF and Florian and me under the dreaded heritic umbrella? What about my good friend Dennis?

      • Jim says:

        My dear friend Tony — notice that I’m getting kinder — I stopped short of actually labeling you a heretic; I simply said that you SOUND like these heretics. With regard to Dennis — yes, I should have included him too. I guess I didn’t because he drinks rocket fuel, and I’m not sure he is responsible for his actions anymore.

        • Aunt Raven says:

          Ah, when invoking “conscience” we need to specify that one can only legitimately follow an INFORMED conscience.
          Many deliberately avoid studying their religion to learn what their moral and ethical duties are. This is “vincible” (deliberate) ignorance, (justifying sin) and we will be judged harshly for it on the last day.
          However, there is such a thing as “invincible ignorance” which means one doesn’t basically understand the problem, despite attempts to learn about it: Such as my 87 year old, life-long (“yellow dog”) Democrat (party of the downtrodden working-man) mother, who basically thinks the Repbublican party is “the party of evil fat-cat bis business” –personally run by Satan.
          She doesn’t get the whole thing about the duty of voting for pro-life candidates irrespective of Party. “= invincible ignorance”. On the last day, God will not send her to Hell for voting for Obama; however He would do so for me if I voted for Obama, because I have the brain to know better. My mother honestly tried to understand the pro-life teachings of the church, but couldn’t; because she has a low IQ. Not many of us have her excuse.

  5. Cindy says:

    Have you ever tried to put a genie back in the bottle? The “shepherds” have failed to lead and more importantly teach the ignorant faithful for years and now you see the result of their lukewarm guidance.

  6. Lu Frost says:

    Who are these “men in black” claimed bishops? Sexualized catechetics is in every one of the diocese of the U S that teaches youth they have a ‘right’ to choose their own sexual gratifications. See the “Growing In Love” series with imprimatur at http://www.motherswatch.net parts 1 and 2. U S bishops are not only preparing little girls for their later abortions with sex education in THEIR parochial schools and CCD program (which has been condemned by Pontiffs), but they are also using our youth to destroy Catholicism. Read Randy Engel’s book, “Sex Education the Final Plague”. She speaks of the ‘new barbarians’ being raised and all with the approval of the Vatican. Concilarists who call themselves ‘Catholic’ please wake up and stop supporting these bishops!

  7. Bo says:

    JMJ
    Dear all
    In Old Testament – Lev.18:22 and 20:13 …Our God , Our Creator , Our Havenly Father is telling us…
    Those clergy(dif. denominations) who are “openly gay”…what kind of Bible they have ?
    There are many who are opposing these “lifestyles” and converting to Catholic Flaith.

  8. ivana says:

    Gays have free will and able to choose the way of life like the rest of us, we are all children of God. Making marriage legal by politicians does not make it right with God. Judgement is not up to us. When we die we will stand alone before the judgement seat of God.
    God showed us the way. It’s up to each one of us to choose Heaven or Hell. The Lord loves all His children what he doesn’t condone is disobeying the commandments and the sin of pride. One of the greatest deception is that the devil wants us to think he doesn’t exist.

  9. Tony says:

    Would we consider the story of David and Jonathan in the Bible a story of Gay love?

    • Richard Andrew says:

      Obviously NOT. This ridiculous idea is a product of a perverse 20th century mindset which cannot understand deep, male friendship. Only a modern mind could so misconstrue and misunderstand the story of David and Jonathan.

  10. YoungFogie says:

    The Catholic bishops of today ARE in fact bishops…. BUT… Nevertheless… they can not impart knowledge which they themselves do not possess. The pseudo theological mumbo jumbo and mind rot which is what passes for present day “catholic catechesis” is destroying the Church. Oh… and yes… let us not forget the white elephant in the sanctuary which is contraception. Contraception is FATAL to the Catholic faith. Up until THIER consciences were pricked… US bishops only WHISPERED about contraception. The other white elephant is the Lavender Mafia (look it up… or read Goodbye Good Men).

    No… this generation of bishops has to die off so that no one left will even remember the little council called V-II. Though there is nothing heretical in the documents of the council… neither is there anything helpful in them except the mandate for Gregorian Chant in the document on the liturgy. I’m still waiting for that part of V-II to be implemented but I’m not holding my breath.

    These bishops can not give what they do not themselves posses… which is the traditional/orthodox Catholic faith.

    • Tony says:

      Lets not forget the sex abuse scandal and the cover up by the bishops. This didn’t help them

    • Lu Frost says:

      Some say there are over 400 errors in the 16 Vatican II documents. A new denomination was designed from Vatican II called conciliarism, and a new mass/the novus ordo missae which was designed by 6 protestants. The errors of Vatican II and the new mass were promulgated by Paul VI. Some errors of the hijacked Vatican II council are: religious liberty, ecumenism, collegiality and sex education in classrooms. These have been condemned by Pontiffs. Popes do not correct their predecessors, but that is what Paul the VI did. He promulgated errors. He turned his back on Sacred Tradition. When will conciliarists recognize they are no longer practicing the Catholic Faith?

  11. Bo says:

    JMJ
    God created Adam and Eve!!!. …..NOT Adam and Steve !
    All who are pro homosexual marriages …really should read Bible and meditate on
    scripture .. ..in silence in front of Blessed Sacrament…and hear the Holy Spirit to guide them…. Truly , imagine Yourself standing in day of judgment in front of HIM!
    Surrender and reverence to what is Holy !
    Ave Maria

    • Tony says:

      What about the story of David and Jonathan in the Bible, isn’t that a kind of homosexual story?

      • Jim says:

        Man, Tony, you must read really far-out (far left) information. This trash you propose here could only have come from some disgusting, repulsive place like the Huffington (barf-ington) Post.

      • Catholic Lady says:

        No Tony it is not a love story of 2 homosexual males. Stop trying find something in the bible account that is not there, for what ever your reason is.

    • New Observer says:

      Bo, I agree. But if a Catholic does as you suggest, they will be accused of being Protestant. Catholics MUST have the Bible interpreted ONLY by a select few men in the Vatican. The Holy Spirit ONLY inspires them. It’s not possible for God to inspire you as a layman with His truth.

      • Jim says:

        New Observer — are you being serious here? Or sarcastic? I can’t tell from your post (this is the limits of electronic communication).

      • Catholic Lady says:

        New Observer, I entered into the Catholic Church through the R.C.I.A. a few years ago. I had come from a “Bible Believing Baptist churh” and can honestly say that I have studied scripture for most of my adult life – since becoming Catholic, I have had the oportunity to study scripture through Catholic Scripture International and have found it to be the most conprehensive study I have ever taken part in. We make good use of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (mine is almost worn out) and our Bible to answer questions for later discussion in a group setting.

        • Catholic Lady says:

          Catholic Scripture Study International- if you are interested you can download lessons from the web site (or a nominal fee)

      • Honestly says:

        Since the Protestant Reformation which was started by Luther, who was a Catholic priest, there have been thousands of new Churches started because of disagreements about bible interpretation. Do you really believe Jesus would have left His Word in the hands of man, knowing our track record since Adam & Eve, without entrusting His authority to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the Church He established through the apostles and Peter as the Head of His Church. Even die hard Protestant ministers have returned to the Catholic Church when they start studying Church History. They realize that Jesus intended the Church to be One, not 2001.

        • Jim says:

          Thanks, Honestly — perfectly and succinctly said.

        • Florian says:

          New churches, particularly Christian ones, get going these days because of disputes over ecclesial governance issues. That’s “good” because such splits can be easier to heal. We also know, from history, that Rome has not always been on top of doctrine or scriptural interpretation — witness the responses of the Pontifical Biblical Commission (once Cardinal Ratzinger’s domain) under Popes Pius X and Benedict XV. The fact that facts (and situations) can change, and do quite regularly, does make for periodic rethinking of what the church teaches, and how.

          • Jim says:

            Good point, Florian. So, I’ve just decided — I believe you now, and reject the entire hierarchy of the Church. After all, you can discern better. What a joke.

            • New Observer says:

              Jim, simply because some guy wears a “collar” and has received “Holy Orders” does not mean pixie dust has come over him and thus he has more discernment regarding spiritual matters than someone in the pew like Florian. Your kind of thinking belongs back in Catholic grammar school with the nuns. Didn’t you graduate into adulthood?

              • Jim says:

                New Observer — when I was in Catholic grade school, I can remember the Holy Spirit drawing me into church after school (the church was on the school grounds), and I went to the front pew — no one else was in church — and I knelt down and told God that I could see, as people got older, that they fell away from the faith. I asked God to ensure that, if that happened to me, that He would bring me back. Well, I did fall away from the faith in college (I thought those 19-year-old girls were prettier than God), but He brought me back in a powerful way in my early 40s. Now, I am convinced the teaching of the Church is inerrant, just as they claim. And no, it’s not pixie dust — it’s the Holy Spirit that ensures inerrancy. For the record, it is not the priests, but rather the bishops — to whom priests vow obedience — who are the genuine teachers of the faith.

                • New Observer says:

                  Jim, I appreciate your story. Thanks. Better that you are led by the Holy Spirit from true discernment which you asked for. Some Priests and Bishops have none (even though they wear the uniform). I “get” where you’re coming from.

  12. Angelo says:

    The Bishops finaly realize how important catechism instruction is. So many Catholics do not know what the faith is. They do not know what offends God and what pleases him. For so many decades sin was not spoken of, it was considered to be against the spirit of vatican ll. Now the grand damage has been done. But it is not too late. The Holy Father has ordered repeatedly that the fullness of truth be taught. If this is done in the US the tide of calling good evil and calling evil good, will save our Nation from falling apart.

    • New Observer says:

      … don’t know what the faith is? More importantly, Catholics don’t know what Bible says because the clergy don’t it and thus are incapable of teaching it to anyone else.

      • Angelo says:

        New Oberver, The Church offers us the best Bible study there ever was. It’s called Sunday and Daily Mass. The Faith the Church teaches comes exclusively from Scripture and Tradition. The Church interprets God’s word to us, it is called the Cathecism. The Cathecism instucts us on what God requires from us. Modern Cathecisms as Bl. John Paul ll and Pope Benedict XVl are extremely deficient. Thats why the Baltimore Cathecism remains the best selling Cathecism. Pope Bendict XVl said of the Baltimore Cathecism, “It is the best Cathecism I have ever encountered worldwide.”

        • New Observer says:

          Angelo, if the Mass is “best Bible Study there ever was” then how come Catholics are so ignorant of Scripture?

          • Jim says:

            New Observer — Catholics can be ignorant of specific (perhaps virtually all) Scripture, yet understand the main message of the Bible — that Jesus Christ died for our sins. At every Mass, we participate in His Passion once again. So, don’t limit yourself to Scripture when evaluating Christian literacy — the issue rather is, do Catholics understand the message of salvation through Jesus’ death on the cross.

            • Honestly says:

              As a Catholic I know there would be no salvation without the Crucifixion. We know it so well that by Canon Law there must be a Crucifix on the altar at all times to remind us what Christ did to save the World.

          • Honestly says:

            Over a three year period by attending Mass on Sundays and daily Mass during the week a Catholic hears the scripture from almost the entire bible. Furthermore it was Catholic monks who copied the bible and gave it to the world. There would be no bible in existence today if the Catholic Church hadn’t preserved. I don’t know where you got your information, but its wrong!!!

            • New Observer says:

              Yes, we agree the Catholic church preserved the New Testament, but the Old Testament books were gathered into one volume and were translated from Hebrew to Greek two centuries before Messiah. The Septuagint Version was translated by 70 scholars at Alexandria, Egypt around 225 B.C. These are the Hebrew Scriptures used by Temple leaders and local Synagogues at the time of Christ’s ministry and later by the apostles. The NT Scriptures were written by “catholic” writers but they were not Roman Catholic as we think today. They belonged to the body of Christ, but the “Roman” Catholic Church was not fully developed until several centuries after the NT was written. We can agree the Roman Catholic Church preserved and assembled the Bible, (not the Torah) but the Bible is not a “Catholic” book. Suffice to say, nevertheless, it is the inerrant, Holy Spirit-inspired word of the living God.

          • Catholic Lady says:

            New Observer; when I was a Protestant I also held the belief that Catholic were ignorant of Scripture but I think that this is a myth – The Catholics that I know and have grown to love are very enlightened scripture students. I have also found that there are people who can have all the advantages that a good home and a good Priest can give to them yet because they are granted free will from God the Father have failed to avail themselves of these gifts.

          • Angelo says:

            New Observer, If a Catholic is ignorant of scripture it is because they do not take the readings at Mass seriously. I have seen this too often. How I wish Catholics would follow the readings at Mass with a serious desire to be in union with God.

            • New Observer says:

              Angelo, surely you’re joking? Likely the priest doesn’t take the Scriptures seriously. When have you ever heard any priest teach on Paul’s letters. More specifically, the Book of Romans?

        • Jim says:

          Angelo — I can’t believe the old Baltimore Catechism — which isn’t very big — could possibly be better than the one first published in 1994. Indeed, JPII commissioned the modern Catechism because of the need for such an exposition of the faith.

          • Angelo says:

            Jim, The Baltimore Cathecism is very concise. It is very big. It starts with the First Communion edition, then Baltimore #1, Baltimore #2, Baltimore #3, and Baltimore #4. It is from bookstores and other booksellers who have told me that the Baltimore Cathecism is their number #1 bestseller. Liberals will not use them in Cathecitical programs. It is Parents who buy they in order for their children to have the opportunity to learn the fullness of the faith. Of Course the New Edition of the Catholic Cathecism is superior. What makes the 5 Baltimore Cathecisms unique is that it is with short concise questions. with short concise answers that go straight to the point. Baltimore Cathecism #4 is about 300 pages, loaded with the teachings of the Catholic Faith, it covers everything and leaves nothing out.

            • Tony says:

              Angelo, I don’t think the BC includes the teacings of Vatican2 and the Social teacings of the Church. Therefore the new Catechism would be the preferred book to use.

  13. James says:

    God can create good out of the evil caused by Original Sin of Man and the Fallen Angels. God can create good despite anything the devil throws at Him and His creation.

    Consider John 9:1-3:

    As he went along, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should have been born blind?” “Neither he nor his parents sinned,” Jesus answered, “he was born blind so that the works of God might be revealed in him.”

    Living with a homosexual inclination and committed to chastity is a mighty work of God that has the potential to change the course of the history of God’s people and of the entire world. I truly admire such a person. However, like the man born blind, their affliction isn’t a “gift,” it is a disorder, but through them, God gives great gifts to His people.

  14. Michael Joseph Francisconi says:

    Homophobia is wrong, it is evil. Love is the foundation of our faith, marriage is between two loving adults end of discussion. The Bishops tread carefully or you will chase the faithful away. There is a need for an inclusive church founded on love not an exclusive church founded on arrogance.

    • James says:

      Michael, does an inclusive Church include Church acceptance of homosexual acts as something good?

      • Michael Joseph Francisconi says:

        Love is love, Homophobia is not.

        • James says:

          Michael, Jesus said if we love him we will follow his commandments. He also said we should love one another as He loves us (not necessarily as the world defines love).Michael,can you answer my question? thankyou,

        • Honestly says:

          Love between a man and a woman is life giving. Tell me how love between two men, or two women can produce life without the intervention of science or a third party. You can’t tell me God didn’t know what He was doing when He created the World.

          • Jim says:

            Honestly and James — thank you for posting the truth. Here’s the sad reality: short of a miracle, MJF is a lost cause. In 2008, he publicly went on record supporting unrepentent terrorist Bill Ayers.

    • Ronnie says:

      What about three people marrying? Or a man and a boy? Why only two? Isn’t that discrimination? Not being inclusive?… If we are going to redefine marriage we should be inclusive and include every type of relationship. What about equality for all!

  15. James says:

    Tony, typical male homosexual intercourse involved the penis and the anus. That is not healthy. How do you defend that?

  16. James says:

    No. That is spiritually wrong. But you havn’t answered my question.

    • Aunt Raven says:

      Sodomy is a disorder and is detrimental to the health and well-being of the body. As such, it is against Natural Law, which though not spiritual, accords with right reason / common sense.
      The Law of God “assumes” Natural Law, because “grace builds upon nature”. Therefore anything contravening Natural Law is de facto spiritually wrong.

      • Ed Hynes says:

        Over the years, things said to be against natural law included many things, from the silly, like wearing cloth that has been dyed , to the serious, like marrying someone of a different race. “Sodomy” has been widespread in human culture and practiced by both heterosexual and homosexual couples. You may disapprove or consider it sinful, but it seems clearly to be a part of human nature. As for health, if you consider venereal disease and maternal death in childbirth, you could make a pretty good case that heterosexual intercourse is detrimental to the health and well being of the body.

        • Jim says:

          Ed — you have just demonstrated how a good attorney can fairly effectively defend any position. Thus, we must turn to the Truth to know the truth. And the Church has always been clear — homosexual sex is always wrong. I would agree that is I think homosexual sex is a sin, that is not particularly relevant. What IS relevant is, what does GOD think? And indeed, we know for sure what He thinks, as He speaks inerrantly through His Church.

          • Ed Hynes says:

            Jim, no argument. It is a matter of what God thinks. I was objecting to the claim about natural law. I know about the claim of inerrancy, but I question whether any human institution or any human being can claim with certainty to speak for God. It strikes me as the height of arrogance.

            • Jim says:

              I agree, Ed, that no human institution can claim inerrancy. The good news: the Catholic Church is inerrantly guided by a non-human, the Holy Spirit, who ensures the human mouthpieces for Him always get it right.

        • Ronnie says:

          Sorry Ed, but that wasn’t the moral law, it was cultural laws. You cannot equate the moral one to the traditional laws of the day. Remember Jesus said ‘not one letter of the law would be abolished’ and He was always criticizing the Pharisees for some of their absurd man-made laws….Race is innate, there is no genetic basis for being born gay…Homosexuality is a disordered inclination which is not sinful in itself unless acted upon…Human nature can be distored by sin…

  17. Concerned says:

    So many of the comments are about who is Catholic and who is not. Who is a real Catholic and who is not. Who needds to be chastised and who doesn’t. No one is forcing the Catholic Church to act against its beliefs and to preside at marriages they don’t think are proper. So the Church does not need to be in politics. As for individuals, they Churchs responsibility is to model the example of Jesus – not to “keep people in line.” If people choose to live a different way – and they are wrong – they have to pay (if they are right, they have nothing to worry about). As for them “not being Catholic” let’s face it – if everyone who broke the teaching of the Catholic Church had to leave the Church – it would be empty (more empty than now). Stop the hypocrisy of judging others. Stop the hypocrisy of pretending to be without sin. Stop the hypocrisy that says we turn our backs. “if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek.” “If they ask for your shirt, give them your jacket.” “How many times must I forgive?” Why the desire for elitism among so many? Why the amnesia about their own failings? Why the deisre to point at others? It’s all lunacy that is going to destroy the Church – not the civil laws – the absolte foolishness of its own members.

    • James says:

      Concerned, People adhering to the Church’s position should do so with love. They do not believe someone can truly love another if the person enables another to commit grievous sin.
      If I truly love my brother or sister, I would want for them to go to heaven. To encourage anyone to continue on a path that is condemned by God, is not loving at all. God does not love tolerance of sin. Although scripture and Church teaching say we are not to judge, they also teach that we are to admonish (warn). Let us love our homosexual brothers & sisters enough to encourage them to lead a chaste lifestyle. They have a tough cross to bear & the Lord will help them with it if they ask Him to.

      • Concerned says:

        you use such lines as license to set yourself up as prosecutor, jury and judge. Your interpretation of Biblical events follows that of someone who reinterprets to make you think others support you.

        • James says:

          It is not merely my interpretation. The Church lists admonishing the sinner as a spirtiual work of mercy.

          • Jim says:

            Thanks, James. Of course, Concerned has started his / her own church, and does not care what the Church teaches about the spiritual works of mercy.

            • Concerned says:

              oh Jim and James the undynamic duo of jimism. Your ideas of works of mercy are easy mouthing off and srewing forth that which is easily repeatable. As for the heart of Jesus and his message you have no concept because it takes too much work. Jim is back to his “that’s what you do.” Jim and James are repeat so much of the same nonsense that they are one in the same. But, just like the Bishops, very few are listening – it just serves your own egos to prattle on like the Pharisees and the Scribes – those condemned by Jesus – the same condemnation belongs to you.

              • Jim says:

                Concerned — you are right that few are listening. As the Creator of the universe Himself said at Matthew 7:13-14, FEW find the gate to eternal life. I pray that you do, Concerned — Hell is forever.

              • James says:

                Concerned, all you do is personnal attacks. You have no substance. It is your feeble attempt to silence discussion that undercuts pro-homosexual positions. I will cease my conversation with you.

            • Concerned says:

              and jim, thanking yourself, come now – who are you kidding.

    • James says:

      Concerned, Some people who advocate active homosexuality accuse others of judging. I believe they confuse admonishing with judging or judging souls vs. judging actions The context of Jesus’ most notable admonishing judging is one where a final determination of the woman’s soul was about to be made – she was about to be put to death for adultery. Some may believe the episode of the woman caught in adultery was a parable, and Jesus was speaking metaphorically. It wasn’t, and he wasn’t. Don’t’ equate quite proper criticism of behavior with stoning someone to death. Most of the so-called judging going on is merely the preaching about judgments already made by God. There are many places in Scripture that say we should admonish someone who’s behavior is putting their souls in danger (e.g. 2 Thess 3:14-15 and 1 Tim 5:20.
      In the Church admonishing the sinner is considered a spiritual work of mercy. In the Old Testament, the death penalty prefigured eternal damnation. Jesus says we cannot make such a final determination. However, admonishing is a warning – not a final determination. Jesus, after admonishing the Jewish leaders not to judge (put the woman to death), he also admonishes the woman and tells her to go and sin no more. Some pro-

      homosexuals say Christians should not judge. When they say this are they judging or
      admonishing people for what they call judging? If they were admonishing them, why is judging the only sin that can be admonished?
      “If I say to the wicked, ‘you shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked man from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.” Ez 33:7-13.
      I will obey God’s command to me to warn (admonish); I do not accept your value system that says not to warn.

      • Concerned says:

        there is a big difference between “warning” and condeming. And those who feel this overwhelming desire to “warn” are almost always those who condem. Your words James are nothing more than a repetition of all the lines used by those who judge and condemn others. Self-justification is nothing more than self-deception.

        • James says:

          Concerned, I do not wish to condemn anyone. I want everyone to go to Heaven. I have not judegd anyone – show me where I have.But I cannot be silent when people are justifying homosexual acts, and abortion as morally good.

          • Concerned says:

            then stop having homosexual acts and abortions James – and you will be good and be giving witness to the life you believe others should live without ever judging anyone.

            • James says:

              Concerned, that is your criteria, God and the Church say I must warn – up to a point. I will not nag.

              • Concerned says:

                God does not say it – you say it and I hate to break this to you, you are not God.

                • James says:

                  Concerned, If I say to the wicked, ‘you shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked man from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.” Ez 33:7-13.
                  Also see the New Testament.

                  • Concerned says:

                    Now quote where it says you must force everyone to act in a certain way… it does not exist. Yet, that is what you want with the fight in politics. Quote to me where it says you get to decide what is in the mind of God…it doesn’t exist. Stop hiding behind the so called “warning” and admit that you seek to enforce what a belief on others. You want to warn people – - warn them by your actions. Stop pretending that you are the sum total of God’s voice.

    • Tony says:

      Concerned, once again thank you for your excelent reflection, I apprecite it.

    • Ronnie says:

      Nice try, same old tired argument about judging so that you close down rational arguments and intimidate people into acquiescence….. But yes, we are all sinners. Love the sinner but ‘hate the sin’. We’re not judging the person but the sin of homosexuality. Like we condemn the sin of fornication and adultery. All these are sins against ‘loving your neighbor as yourself’.
      As for this not impacting the Church, are you serious? The Mandate in Obamacare and the legalization of same-sex marriage will soon force the Church to cover these disordered relationships. Already people who own businesses are being forced or fined for not catering to their celebrations..Not to mention the indoctrination of this in our schools. Foolishness is when you deny the truth when it’s right before your eyes……

      • Ed Hynes says:

        I believe the ACA requires health insurance to cover contraception–incidentally, a requirement which would reduce the number of abortions. Legalization of same-sex marriage is a matter of state law. It does not affect either the Church or heterosexual couples except to give us a chance to celebrate when our gay friends take their vows.

        If you still feel threatened, consider this: The civil law covering marriage allows divorced persons to remarry, but it does not require the Catholic Church to marry them. There is 0.0% probability that the Church would be required to perform marriages for gay couples. So relax. You are completely free not to use contraception and not to have homosexual relations, just as you are completely free not to have an abortion.

        • DENNIS says:

          Ed, you are good.

          Very informative and entertaining.

        • Ronnie says:

          Contraception does not reduce the numbers of abortions, it increases promiscuity and therefore we end up with more diseases, more abortions and more despair….
          Abortion funding and same-sex disordered unions won’t affect the Church??? Are you serious? HHS mandate, lesbian couples suing religious people for not hosting their conterfeit and disordered unions, firing of people who support tradional marriage, the incidents are too numerous to name here…and this is only the beginning. State law will affect religious individuals and groups because of socialist Obama’s attack on religious liberty….Wake up….

          • Tony says:

            Wow, Ronnie, you sound a little on the homophobic side. Don’t you have any gay people in your family with whom you can share their struggles and see their suffering and pain?

            • Jim says:

              Tony — you completely missed the thrust of Ronnie comment. (S)he is right — the assault on religion will increase in severity, but by then it will be too late to do anything about it — until some major cataclysmic event happens, like a meteor strking the Earth (at God’s command). Then, after two-thirds of the population has been destroyed, people will come to their senses, and want to do the right thing. This is why the 1950s were so quiet — the world had been chastened by that horrible war and the attendant suffering. What waits in the wings is worse than WWII, according to the Blessed Mother at Akita, Japan in the late 1970s / early 1980s.

            • Ronnie says:

              If I’m homophobic (typical comment when someone who wants to close down all rational arguments and intimidate people into acquiescense)could I charge you with Christophobic? And yes I do know some people who are struggling with this sin but I also known some who are ‘former homosexuals’ and that’s why I engage this issue….You have my sympathy if that’s what you want. Maybe if you’re serious and open-minded you would consider looking into “Courage” and allow Christ to change your life….

              • Jim says:

                Ronnie — as it turns out, Tony is not gay, but rather married for many years with children. Of course, this does not mean that he doesn’t struggle with gay impulses — but he and I had a go-round about this a few months back, and I don’t think Tony is gay. Nevertheless, as you correctly point out, Tony should refer those he knows stuggling with homosexuality to Courage.

              • Tony says:

                I don’t want to close down conversation or intimidate you. Far from it, I think, in diadoge we can come to a better understanding. I am not Christophobic to the contrary me and my family are very commited to Christ and his church. I would not recommend anyone going to Courage because they favor Reparitve therepy, something which is harmful. As far as Former Homosexuals, I doubt it,

                • Jim says:

                  Reparative Therapy has been shown to be effective for the majority of homosexuals, and has even shown benefit for a minority of those who claim to be 100% homosexual; i.e., with no heterosexual interests. DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS POLITICALLY-CORRECT, LIBERAL-SANITIZED GARBAGE. Sorry, Tony, but you are hurting others by your misstatement ofthe facts.

                  • Tony says:

                    Jim, to to the contrary if I recall correctly the state of California has prohibited this quackery. I’m told that mainstream psychologists frown on the practice.

                    • Ronnie says:

                      California banned it precisely because it is effective and because of the pressure and intolerance of the gay community.

                    • Jim says:

                      Ronnie — you are right on target. Many believe that “science” and the professions are apolitical — but I know for a fact that science and the professions can be very political.

            • Angelo says:

              Tony, You speak of Gay’s Struggles, suffering and pain. If there is nothing wrong with a gay lifestyle then why do they stuggle, suffer and have pain?

              • Tony says:

                Angelo, because of the non acceptance of family and employers, and society in general. That’s why the stay in hiding or in the closet. They have to be in denial, it’s almost like they have to live a lie. That’s part O’Grady it Angelo.

              • Ed Hynes says:

                Angelo, “gay lifestyle” sounds as if being gay is a conscious choice. I assume you’re heterosexual–do you feel you had a choice, or is it part of your nature. Do you think gays are any different? As Tony says, they suffer because they are not accepted. I would add because many do not accept their basic humanity and consider them intrinsically disordered.

                • Jim says:

                  Ed — indeed, God’s inerrant Church teaches explicitly in the Catechism that homosexuality is in fact intrinsically disordered. Point two: no expert (other than the gay political lobby) asserts that homosexuality is exclusively biologically driven. There are biologic predispositions, but no determination.

                  • Tony says:

                    But Jim, I wonder if the Church is competant to comment on being homosexual, not the morality of the acts but rather the state of being. It is for the Chruch to talk about theology not science.

                    • Jim says:

                      Tony — in the Catechism, the Church states that the causes of homosexuality are not completely understood. By extension, they are stating that they too do not completely understand it, and must leave it to the scientists to work out the causation. Regardless of causation, however, homosexuality will always be disordered (it is contrary to natural law and to God’s purpose for sexuality), and it will always be a sin. The Church’s understanding of degree of culpability may change as the scientific understanding changes, but nevertheless it will always be the case that homosexual sex will always be objectively sinful.

                    • James says:

                      Tony, in the Church’s view homosexuality is disordered relative to God’s created intent – not to what is now considered normal in a Fallen Creation.

                    • Tony says:

                      James, I wonder if God could create a mistake? Perhaps God created homosexuality as a safety net to keep the populatin in balance.

                    • James says:

                      Why would God have to create the population in balance? In the beginning man was not subject to death so there was nothing threatening mankind until he sinned.Also, why would God list homosexual acts as immoral in both the Old and New Testament?

                    • James says:

                      Tony, no God dosn’t make mistakes, but God did not create homosexuality. He did not create Death, disease, disorder – these are all consequences of Original Sin. They are not so much something as they are a corruption of something that God did create.

                    • James says:

                      Before man fell he would not have had to die to enter Heaven. No population issues becasue God may have taken man to heaven without death when God disired to.

                    • Tony says:

                      So, you mean we have a God that Got so angry at A sin millions of years ago. That millions of people are still suffering from it? Sounds like a God who is a little off his rocker, rather than the God of LOVW Jesus proclaimed.
                      No wonder so many people don’t beleive in God.

                    • James says:

                      So apparently you don’t believe in Original Sin? The consequences of Original Sin are the reason Jesus died and rose. God gave man free will and man chose to do what God had forbidden. God allows the natural consequences of man’s free will to manifest themselves. Not believing in Original Sin makes all kinds of things very convenient.

                    • James says:

                      Yes, God does love us – that is why he sent his only son to save us. It is you who described God as vengeful. Adam and Eve chose to withdraw from God, not God from them. But homosexual acts must be maintained so you are willing to throw all kinds of teaching out the window to uphold that.

                    • James says:

                      Tony, you never ansered my question, if what you say is true about God creating homosexuality, why are homosexual acts forbidden in both Old and New Testaments?

                    • Tony says:

                      Some scripture scholars believe it is not so much homosexuality that was condemned but rather inhospitality.

                    • James says:

                      Church teaching says Leviticus and 1 Cor. and 1 Tim refer to all homosexual acts. There are no qualifications.

                    • James says:

                      Tony, what in Levitcus, 1 Cor, 1 Tim could refer to inhospitality?

                    • James says:

                      Tony, in Leviticus it reads (“men who lie with a male as with a woman” ). What here deals with inhospitality?

                    • Tony says:

                      James I’m sorry I can’t seem to recall which mention of homosexuality is thought to refer to hospitality. I only remember reading that one of the references referred to that. If in time I come across it I will let you know.
                      Sorry I could not have been mor helpful.

                    • Tony says:

                      I think it is Gen 19

                    • James says:

                      Tony, that is the Sodom story, the references I made were to Leviticus, where the moral laws were set out, as well as the New Testament. These do not have any reference to inhospitality.What say you of them?

                  • Ed Hynes says:

                    Jim, In the sense you mean, heterosexuality isn’t biologically determined either. In any case, I said that for gay people, being gay is not a conscious choice, just as being straight is not a conscious choice. And why do I think that any expert who disagrees with you is automatically part of the gay political lobby? In any case, I believe Tony has very politely made the real point.

                    • Jim says:

                      Ed — I agree that, like homosexuality, a person’s choices can interfere with their heterosexuality. I appreciate your distinction between something being a choice vs. a conscious choice; that is a more precise (and more accurate) way of stating it. BTW, at Mass today, your post about the inerrancy of the Catholic Church popped into my head when the priest was conscecrating the host. It struck me that to believe the priest actually makes Jesus come into the world — Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity — at the consecration requires at least as much faith as believing that the Church’s teachings are inerrant. I believe both.

                    • Ed Hynes says:

                      Jim, the Real Presence is a matter of doctrine that must be taken on faith. Inerrancy is a claim about truth and authority that is self-referential: since we are inerrant we must be correct when we say we are inerrant. Of course you can also accept it as a matter of faith, but it is a considerably broader claim.

                  • Ed Hynes says:

                    And thanks for reminding us of the Church’s “inerrant” teaching on the matter. I think you’ve answered Angelo’s question.

                • James says:

                  Ed Haynes, they are disorder relative to God’s created intent – not in the clinical sense used by science. But science studies a fallen creation, not God’s original.

                  • Ed Hynes says:

                    James, as you and Jim have said, we live with the consequences of original sin. Doesn’t that mean we are all disordered relative to God’s original intent?

                    • James says:

                      Yes, in one way or another. But I don’t see adulterers going around claiming themselves as group that needs to be celebrated.

    • Angelo says:

      Concerned, It has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with worshipping and obeying the Creator. If what you say is hypocrisy, then the biggest hypocrite would be Jesus Christ, God made Man. Are you not jugding others yourself. Christ said “Judge the spirits”. A Saint said something like, “The best way to allow evil to advance, is by not speaking out against it.” and in the OT, God warns that if we do not speak out against evil, and another is damned we will receive the punishment as he.

    • Jim says:

      Concerned — as always, you mistate the truth. The fact is, Obamination Care will REQUIRE Catholic employers to fund insurance plans that in turn use some of that money for contraception and abortifacients. It’s nice to know that people like you, who can’t think logically, re-elected Mr. 666.

  18. Florian says:

    Before the (Washington) hierarchy speaks one more word, or thinks one more thought, about gay marriage or anything else that takes them on a trip below the human navel, they need to take a good close look at human sexuality and human relationships. Their output thus far indicates that they really do not understand what goes on between two human beings, even from a scriptural perspective and based on the teachings of Old and New Testaments. They need not scratch their heads and wonder why Catholics and non-Catholics are tuning them out in record numbers.

  19. Elizabeth says:

    I would like to see more talk on this issue from a Bible view old/new testament.

  20. m.l. Larson says:

    Tony obviously isn’t watching enough FOX news.

  21. Joe says:

    The bishops must stand up for the teachings of the church. Abortion exists we have not been able to change that for 40 years however no one has a gun to peoples head to have abortions and use birth control or to engage in non hetero sexual behavior. The bishops cain’t blame politics for what they cannot preach and teach tp thier own flock. The Sanctity of all life is the foundation of our belief the unborn, elderly, death row inmates , the poor, victims with AIDS, immigrants, Jews, Protestants , Muslims, Hindu’s, Buddists etc, etc etc

    • DENNIS says:

      Hi Joe.

      Since the Bishop’s are being mostly ignored on their push to have the federal government make abortion illegal, maybe they should change the subject.

      How about a federal law to ban prostitution?

  22. Old Roman Collar says:

    well, I really blame the Bishops from 1973, when the republican picked Blackmum, cast the final vote for abortion, its been the people who have done more to stop this than the Bishop’s, just of these later years have the the Bishop’s said anything strong, but Richard Nixon was the a republican president and appointed Blackmum, and since the republicans brought in abortion and have been in longer than the democrates, they too have only made money on this and have done nothing to stop it, only by words in the papers, even the strong republican court appointements, have done nothing on abortion, and they blame the democrates for what they voted on to kill babies

  23. Suz says:

    AAAhhh Tony, you’re right–He is the God of Jesus, but He is also the God of the Old Testament as well–and a God of Justice!! Just because the Church stopped preaching that years ago and opted only for the “feel good” sermons doesn’t mean that that has changed!

    • Tony says:

      I’ll stick with the God of Jesus, and I hope you do the same. Jesus, don’t forget is true God and True man and the perfect image of the father.

  24. Terik Ororke says:

    A couple that lives together, whether it be brother and sister, just friends, straight or homosexual all deserve to have rights, even those of inheritance and the like. That being said: it is not a marriage. Creating a law that says it is may be legal but it is wrong, biblically. The rejection is of what the bible teaches. In the bible, one cannot separate marriage and having children. What homosexual “marriage” is a non-entity in the bible akin to temple prostitution. (bring back the Vestal virgins and male salaves.)

    • Tony says:

      The Bible has many examples of polygamy wanna go back to that?

      • DENNIS says:

        Morning Tony.

        Sorry to inject this unrelated post.

        Thought you might like to know the republicons are already starting to change. The word is out.

        Hannity now likes immigrants and wants them to stay.

        I expect Jim will be next.

        • Tony says:

          Dennis thank you for that news.
          Hannity, like Romey is a anti life, pro abortion polititions too, they favor abortion for rape or incest, hardly prolife.

        • Jim says:

          Hey Dennis, the truth is, generally I like Latinos. It has nothing to do with politics; I like their vivaciousness. Also, for the record, if I was single I would date black women, as well as Latinos and Asian Americans. I would most certainly enjoy spending an evening with J Lo. You can have Megan Kelly; although I wouldn’t be averse to spending time with her either.

      • James says:

        Tony, polygamy, divorce,slavery are all consequences of Original Sin, not God’s created intent. They may be in the bible, but it is not what God intended for man.

    • Ed Hynes says:

      “In the bible, one cannot separate marriage and having children.”
      Does this mean that the Church should not marry people who are infertile, or that marriages should be dissolved if they are infertile? If not, why not?

      • Ronnie says:

        That is not their choice. They didn’t choose to be infertile….When you marry in the Church you agree to raise your children in the Church…

  25. Phil says:

    Tony, Galileo was not condemned for his scientific positions but for his theological conclusions. But, regardless, the true meaning of sacramental marriage is a constant teaching of the Church. Condemnation of homosexual acts is taught in the New Testament and has always been the teaching of the Church. To reject that teaching is to not be Catholic…one cannot pick and choose what Church teachings to accept based on ones own personal views. Conscience must be properly formed by Church teaching to be a reliable guide, not formed by a secular culture that rejects the call to holiness. To be Catholic is to accept that the Church magesterium teaches with the authority of Christ Himself…to reject that is to not be Catholic.

  26. Sophia says:

    Now the Bishops have seen the result of the years of neglect in the catechesis department. It is PATHETIC to say the least. This is a wake up call to all. IN fact, I must say the state of the souls of the Catholic Church members is in intensive care unit.

  27. Tony says:

    JPII acknowledged that the Church was wrong to have condemend Galleleo because it did not have the scientific knowledge to make such a condemnation.
    We as a church have to realize that homosexuality is a universal reality among humankind. To condemn homoseluals and their lifestyle is to do an injustice to some of the worlds most gifted people.
    Some would say that homosexuality is a natural way for humankind to keep from over populating the species, and if they are correct, perhaps homosexual unions should be honored.
    Another thing to consider is isn’t it better to have two homosexuals in a committed loving relationship than the alternative. All people gay and stright deserve the same rights and privilges in our world.

    • Sophia says:

      @Tony: Lies from Satan. The sin of homosexual acts has been there from the beginning alright, but it is still a SIN . A poison will always be a poison. You can’t change a cyanide into a non-toxic material no matter how many centuries it will be down the road. Same with homosexual acts. Comparing with Galileo is absolutely erroneous bec the “scientific beliefs” of Galileo is not an intrinsic evil of morality. The church people can be wrong when it goes beyond issues of morality. However, in the case of homosexuality, remember this, it is God who gives the right and we have the privileged of marriage. What insanity is going to ensue if we grant everyone the “rights” they all want to have. Those polygamous people would demand the same right, the pedophiliacs would do the same, the ones in an incestuous relationships. You will be making abnormal, unhealthy, unnatural relationships seem to look “normal”. This is a total B.S!

      There are devastating social repercussions for giving into gay marriage. What will become of society at large? The population at large? It will be its demise. Population isn’t bad per se. It is the quality of the population that is the determinant of future success as a nation.

      Nature (as endowed by God) has placed natural limitations and rules into man so that the world will operate in a natural manner. Who is stupid to place a plug into another plug or a socket into another socket? Do they generate electricity? Let’s stop lying to ourselves and to the future generation. It isn’t fair to our future generations children.

      Let’s stop giving excuses and start drawing a line bec the sins of the flesh is crying out for divine retribution and justice. Lord have mercy that His anger will be appeased.

      • Tony says:

        Sophia, do you really believe that God is such a tyrant tat his anger be appeased?
        That’s not the God of Jesus who seeks out the most errant sinner to call him back to His Love.
        I think you should be more concerned with your image of God rather than homosexual love. Just saying.

        • Cecilia says:

          Tony, were you never chastised out of love when you continued to disobey your parents. God puts restraints on us out of love. What he forbids us are things that ultimately make us unhappy. Actively homosexual men on an average have a 25% shorter life span because of substance abuse, depression, contracted diseases and unnatural physical strains on their bodies. A loving parents tries to correct a child when he is hurting himself. I really do wonder why this makes so much sense to me and not to you.

          • Tony says:

            Cecilia, but it is not God who chastises us, we chastise ourselves by doing thing we should not do.
            Like not respecting the enviorment and causing global warming. It is not God’s doing, it is ours.

        • Angelo says:

          Tony, According to biblical scholors, Christ spoke more in the New Testament about hell than any other subject. True God is a God of great mercy, but he is also a God of Justice. It is he who said, “Off to the fires of hell prepared for the devil and his angels.”. Don’t make up your own God. God is who he is!

      • tanya says:

        thank you sophia.

    • James says:

      Tony, Copernicus expressed the same ideas before Galileo, but was never condemned by the Church. Why is that?

    • James says:

      Tony, it seems the typical sexual acts between males homosexuals is wide open to disease. How can you defend such acts?

      • Tony says:

        James, so are you suggesting that we advocate for feminine homosexual acts?

      • Tony says:

        The answer to that question is beyond my paygrade.

        • James says:

          Tony, I misplaced my response. Let me try again.

          Tony, typical male homosexual intercourse involved the penis and the anus. That is not healthy. How do you defend that?

          • Angelo says:

            James, It does not matter what anyone says, Tony must contradict it. It seems to be his passion. But it is good to answer him for the sake of practicing Catholics who read the comments on this site. Never expect him to agree with anyone!

            • Jim says:

              Not true, Angelo — Tony typically agrees with Dennis (another disaffected Catholic) and Michael Joseph Fransisconi (an anarchist who is on record as of 2008 of supporting terrorist Bill Ayers).

              • Tony says:

                Ojim did you read my postings to you of why I think the pro life community should cool it on protesting at at his time?

                • Jim says:

                  I think I did, Tony. And I responded to one of your posts, indicating that, in fact, there is solid evidence of both personal and legislative victories, and therefore we should keep up our efforts.

                  • Tony says:

                    Jim I saw a quote from Jefferson today “I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy as cause for withdrawing from a friend.” How important that is especially for us disciples of Jesus. I will pray for you during my hour of Adoration tonight.

                    • Jim says:

                      A sincere thanks for that, Tony. In another post that you may not have seen, I told Dennis that, when I said the Rosary today, I asked the graces to be applied to (among others) him and you and Florian and — because of your encouragement — the president (I have prayed for him in the past, but not as often as I should).

                    • Jim says:

                      Also, Jefferson’s perspective is good for me to hear.

                    • DENNIS says:

                      Jim I’ll be quick since they probably only let you out for a half hour at a time.

                      I truly do appreciate your prayers.

                    • Jim says:

                      Dennis — actually, for my good behavior, I now get two half-hour periods out. I don’t agree with 90% of what you post, but I like you nonetheless, because you have an edge to you. And, I like beating up on edgy people.

                    • DENNIS says:

                      Jim.

                      Me too! And three hours on Sunday.

                      Do you hear those voices?

                      Never mind, they will be back later.

                    • Jim says:

                      Dennis — I’ve noticed the voices come more often and they are louder the more rocket fuel I drink.

                    • DENNIS says:

                      Jim, I just realized we might be neighbors. There is a large state mental hospital a few miles away.

                      Which one are you in?

                    • Jim says:

                      Dennis — I’m in some kind of federal forensic prison. But, I know I am really being held by the CIA, because I have secrets that they want.

                    • DENNIS says:

                      Jim, been there, done that – sucks right?

                    • DENNIS says:

                      Jim things seem nice and peaceful tonight.
                      Aaahh.

                      Probably because everybody is celebrating Obama’s re-election.

                      Right?

                    • Jim says:

                      Actually, Dennis, I don’t believe the Obamination has been re-elected; I think this is just a bad dream. Pass the rocket fuel.

                    • DENNIS says:

                      Hooray Jim we agree again. You are living a bad dream.

                      Now repeat after me

                      Om………..

                    • Jim says:

                      Dennis — I’m not sure I get your instructions. Am I supposed to say, “aaaaa ooooommmmmm”? Like in many of the Moody Blues songs of old?

                    • DENNIS says:

                      Jim I can’t take it anymore!

                      But just for you here it is:

                      “OM” or “AUM” has been called the “Sound of the Universe” as it is believed that the whole Universe, in its fundamental form, is made up of vibrating, pulsating energy. Om is considered as the humming sound of this cosmic energy and is the most important and significant word of Mantra tradition. Moreover, OM is the most often chanted sound among all the sacred sounds on earth. This sound is considered as the sound of the existence too.

                    • Jim says:

                      Wow, that’s weird — because, even before you told me that, whenever I sneeze, I say, ah – ah – oooommmmm – choo! In this case, the universe is sneezing. Wow, farm out. Pass the pipe.

                    • DENNIS says:

                      Jimmy.

                      “Wow, farm out.”

                      You are so close yet so far away.

                    • Jim says:

                      Well, Dennis, the guards are calling me back now. I don’t know if they’re real, or if I’m dreaming. But they are pointing their guns at me, and they are all saying “aaahhh oooommmm” in unison. So, I better go back in. I’ll talk to you during my time outs tomorrow. Farm out.

                    • DENNIS says:

                      Farm out to you Jim.

                      Sleep tight.

                      God bless.

    • Angelo says:

      Tony, What you say stinks! St. Catherine of Sienna was given by God the ability to smell the sin of homosexuality. The St. said that the stench is so horrifying that it would have killed her if God had not intervened. The stench goes up to God and makes it one of the 4 sins that cry out to God for vengeance. That is it is punished in this life as well as the next. Christ’s Church condemns this sin as an intrinsic evil, it being Divine Law the Church will never change it. So, reform your life or lose it to hell.

      • Jim says:

        Angelo — is what you are quoting from the Dialogue of St. Catherine of Sienna? I’d like to get the reference for that. I believe you — I just want to be able to refer others to it.

        • Angelo says:

          Jim, Yes I was referring to the Diologue of St. Catherine of Sienna. It is to be found in the Chapter on, “THE MYSTIC BODY OF HOLY CHURCH”. It is in #124. Here is something that one can quote which is powerful, “As if they were blind and stupid, with the light of their understanding extinguished, they do not recognize what miserable filth they are wallowing in. The stench reaches even up to me, supreme Purity…”. To St. Catherine, God condemns the the sin of homosexuality in the stongest terms.

      • Tony says:

        Angelo that was a metaphor St Cathy used to describe what she perceives to be a sin.

        • Jim says:

          Tony — when a woman as holy as St. Catherine speaks, I listen. It may not be equivalent to Magisterial teachings, but nevertheless a wise person listens to such a holy woman.

          • Tony says:

            No question it is good to listen I was just pointing out she may have been using a metaphor, even as Jesus did,

            • Jim says:

              Tony — my response to you was not directed at your assertion that St. Catherine was using a metaphor — presumably she was. I was taking issue with your statement that she “perceived” homosexuality to be sin. That implies it is a matter of perception, when in fact there is no question about it — all homosexual relations are an abomination. It is not a matter of opinion or perception.

        • Angelo says:

          Tony, The Diologue of St. Catherine of Sienna is a direct conversation she had with God. It was no metaphor, it was the truth. St. Catherine of Sienna because of those writings was declared a Doctor of the Church, by the Church herself.

          • Tony says:

            St Catherine is a great Woman of the Church and a great mystic. However much has to be taken into consideration in approaching her writing. For example her worldview conditioned by the times, the society and the culture in which she lived. The one sure thing we can take away from Catherine is her understanding of the overwhelming insatiable love that God has for us. Many excellent commentaries have been written about her works by members of the Dominican order you may want to consult them, Angelo there are also great CDs and DVD by the same Dominicans on the matter.

 
 

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