Catholic theologians stand up to the Vatican
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Over the last 50 years, the practice of thinking theologically in the Roman Catholic Church has slowly shifted from a practical craft developed by clerics to train the next generation of clerics to a wider field of study that includes lay academics and employs perspectives from across the scholarly spectrum.
As Catholic theology has branched out, bishops — who have the ultimate teaching authority in the church — have struggled to curb theological thinking they consider a potential source of confusion for the lay faithful. As a result, in recent years the bishops have criticized the work of a number of prestigious American theologians.
And in St. Louis last weekend (June 7-10), the theologians were girding for a fight.
Members of the Catholic Theological Society of America spoke in protest against the Vatican’s recent denunciation of Sister Margaret Farley’s 2006 book, “Just Love: A Framework for Christian Social Ethics” in which the bishops found “grave problems.”
We must “learn to say ‘stop’ to those who abuse authority only to preserve it,” the Rev. William O’Neill, of the Jesuit School of Theology at Berkeley, told the assembled scholars. [more]
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72 Comments
C’mon folks…wasn’t it said that division would be rampant in these ‘end times’? I really hope for the Illumination of Conscience soon. That will divide the goats from the sheep.
Jim, How dare you suggest that I am in the state of mortal sin. How dare you! Sister is a theologian and I read theology.. I read theology!,, I don’t label people heritics…….Joan of Arch was labeled a heritic and now she is a Saint……….I’ll leave the judgement of others God. How dare you suggest that anyone is in the state of mortal sin.
That’s amazing, Tony — because you read a heretical theologian, you somehow think that protects you from being in a state of mortal sin. Frankly, it leads you INTO mortal sin. You already think masturbation doesn’t have to be confessed — and that is a mortal sin, which blocks the grace one otherwise would receive when receiving the Eucharist. And, Tony, since you are so versed in what the Church teaches, then you will know that admonishing sinners (read: you) is the first spiritual work of mercy. If we do not admonish sinners, God will hold us accountable (Ezekiel 33:7-9). You sound awfully self-righteous, Tony: “How dare you suggest that I am in the state of mortal sin.” No, not Tony, he’s too good. After all, you read heretical theologians.
Jim, I am starting to conclude that you are a religious fanatic nut job.
You harp on masturbation being a mortal sin, and you imply that I masturbate. I wonder if you are not projecting your own difficulty.
What about the Bishops, whom you admire so much, ya think they may masturbate and sometime receive communion?
Get a life Jim.
Tony — no, I do not think the bishops masturbate — although I’m sure one or two have fallen at times. But no, I seriously doubt that is a rampant problem in their ranks. Might be hard for you to imagine that anyone can be sexually pure, Tony, given your affinity for heretic Farley’s immoral propositions.
With regard to me getting a life — I believe I will have eternal life with Jesus and the Blessed Mother in Heaven forever. I pray that you too will obtain eternal life in Heaven, Tony. But be assured, no one is masturbating in Heaven, and no one desires to masturbate, because the desire to do so is purged in Purgatory.
BTW, I have no idea what you’re doing up at 3:10 in the morning — difficulty sleeping at night?
No, no diffeculty sleeping, i was taking care of someone who is ill.
And BTW, it’s none of your business.
I. Got goodness today from Amazon Sisters book will be at my house next week.
Why you’d want to read a heretic’s book is beyond me, Tony — really hard to figure, since you go to Mass during the week. But, you know, if you’re not in a state of grace because you have unconfessed mortal sins when you receive the Eucharist, you can’t really get much (if any) grace from this practice. Maybe that explains how you can go to Mass during the week but still think a heretic’s book has any value beyond kindling wood. If you don’t believe me about her being a heretic, go to the USCCB website, where they describe the gross problems with her book.
Jim, I see your not such a bad guy after all. Please accept my apology for my inappropriate ness yesterday.
Hey Polycarp — don’t sweat it; no problem, but thanks for the apology. I actually enjoy spirited debate; being too nice is not very much fun. I’ll let the ladies like Marion work the niceness angle. So, my proposal: let’s continue our honest exchange — I like it when people challenge me.
Cool
Jim, I see your not such a bad guy after all and please accept my apology for anyway I may have offended you with improper language and attackes. You just got to me, again I’m sorry
Let’s all simmer down and pray for each other.Now that would be Christian and maybe even Catholic!!
Good idea, Marion.
Let’s do it.
A magisterium exists to weed out erroneous voices. Any organization that identifies themselves as the Catholic Theological Association and supports heretical thought, including those by Sr. Farley, is not Catholic! As Catholics we don’t follow blindly; we walk by faith and humility and not pride and turn ourselves into god.
Thanks, Mary, for your clarity and courage. I can see your parents gave you an appropriate name. I think our Blessed Mother would be saying exactly what you are saying.
The magisterium is not going to be able to stop people from thinking about issues important to their life. What the magisterium teaches may not answer these questions using up to date information. It is possible, even for the Vatican, to try to block the Holy Spirit in order to maintain control. Theologians try to make sense of these issues using competent scholarly techniques. But theological discussion should remain with theologians until there is consensus, rather than be taught to those unskilled in discerning truth.
Peggy — your assertion that the Vatican might be trying to “block the Holy Spirit in order to maintain control” is just re-warmed feminist garbage from the 20th century. The fact is, men were given the role of leaders of women by God (see 1930 encyclical Casti Connubii). And, ask any woman in touch with her feminine soul, and she will tell you she wants to be protected and led by (competent) men. With regard to “consensus” among theologians: I could care less if every theologian in the world declared the Earth is flat — Truth is Truth, regardless of what sinful, errant, heretical theologians say. I am following one voice, one light, and that is the light of the inerrant Magisterium. The Magisterium does not try to stop anyone from thinking about issues — but after thinking about them and formulating questions, the person needs to LISTEN to the teachings of the Church — only the inerrantly inspired Catholic Church is capable of pronouncing definitive Truth — no theologian, or group of theologians, can make that claim.
Jesus had on a on-going fight with the Pharisees who lived by the letter of the law. They finally had to kill him. We have our Pharises today in our church.. This sister explores question that are apart our life today. It is o.k. to question. I have a question, how can I as a Catholic Christian live the gospel of love as Jesus told me to do? Keep it Simple, take off your black Pharisee role.
Joseph — it is okay to question, as long as you listen for the answer from God — which is given to us through the inerrant Magesterial teachings of the Church.
That deep voice of truth is written on own hearts, and it speaks to us if we meditate and listen. Every man in the Magesteriam is a human being, not God, and as human beings, they are not inerrant — NONE of them! Popes have believed in their own infallibility going back as far as the fourth/fifth centuries of the Catholic church but none ever had the audacity to formulate a doctrine until Pope Pius in the late 19th century, because the laity was finally becoming educated and thinking too much using their own God-given reason.
Yes,living by a conscience informed by the teachings of the Church.
That deep voice of truth is written on own hearts, and it speaks to us if we meditate and listen. Every man in the Magesteriam is a human being, not God, and as human beings, they are not inerrant — NONE of them! Popes have believed in their own infallibility going back as far as the fourth/fifth centuries of the Catholic church but none ever had the audacity to formulate a doctrine until Pope Pius in the late 19th century because the laity was finally becoming educated and thinking too much using their own God-given reason.
Funny, Recovering Catholic, how the Protestants have come up with the same idea — problem is, two Protestants, both of whom claim they are inspired by the Holy Spirit, come up with different conclusions. The Holy Spirit speaks with one voice. Sinful men draw conclusions they want to draw. “The light came into the world, but the world knew it not, as the world preferred darkness to the light.”
Theologians try to explain faith though reason using the signs of the time. The world is not static, nor should theology be. Sister is trying to make sense out of thology in light of current thought. I egerly await her book which Amazon sold out.
Polycarp, I too have ordered Sister’s book. Many theologians have been under investigation during the history of the church. Theologians don’t always agree with each other as they have different views. Witness the different approaches of Dominican and Franciscan Theology.
Theologians who are truthful can only try to explain what the Church teaches in light of current circumstances. They cannot change doctrine because they disagree with the Vatican. Yet, that is just what Farley has done. It’s not a matter of the Vatican and people like Farley having a discussion to determine the truth — Farley needs to LISTEN while the Vatican SPEAKS. If she disagrees with Church doctrine, she is always wrong.
That deep voice of truth is written on own hearts, and it speaks to us if we meditate and listen. Every man in the Magesteriam is a human being, not God, and as human beings, they are not inerrant — NONE of them! Popes have believed in their own infallibility going back as far as the fourth/fifth centuries of the Catholic church but none ever had the audacity to formulate a doctrine until Pope Pius in the late 19th century, because the laity was finally becoming educated and thinking too much using their own God-given reason.
Gentlemen — if you go to this USCCB link: http://www.usccb.org/news/2012/12-097.cfm, you will have all the information you’ll need to determine that Farley’s book is heretical. For example, Farley asserts in her book that masturbation almost never represents a moral issue — she obviously either didn’t read the Catechism, or chooses to ignore it. She also asserts homosexual sex should be respected, even if the participants do have a choice (they always do). She is a heretic.
Polycarp — you said yesterday you were trying to grow in your Christian walk. Why don’t you read the Catechism instead? For example, paragraph 2352 which concerns masturbation is in clear conflict with Farley’s heretical assertions.
Like YOU don’t do it!
So, Hanging On, can I next anticipate you will be disclosing to us your sexual deviances?
And, Hanging On, if you really are hanging on to the Church, may I suggest you examine your sexual practices to bring them in line with what the Church teaches. The Blessed Mother told one of the Fatima visionaries in a private but well-documented revelation that more sins go to Hell for sins of the flesh than for any other reason. Sexual sins will lead you quickly away from the truth, until you’re not sure you want to be Catholic anymore; until you start believing the heresies Farley espouses.
that should have read “more SOULS go to Hell for sins of the flesh than for any other reason.”
Jimmy, may I suggest that Fatima is not a required belief of a Catholic and That the whole message thing may have been a figment of the imagination.
Indeed, Polycarp, you are now speaking truth – -Fatima is a private revelation, and Catholics do not have to believe in it to be a faithful Catholic. But, I choose to believe it — after all, 70,00 people, at least some of whom were not Catholic, saw the sun move around in the sky, then appear to fall towards the Earth. When events such as those happen, and especially when the messages are completely consistent with the Magisterium, I’m believing them. BTW, when I was in high school, a very attractive girl I once dated called me “Jimmy” — hmmm …….
Those were the days huh?
Yah, and we didn’t have any theological discussions that I can recall. Of course, I don’t believe I really was practicing the Catholic faith at the time. Let’s get to Heaven so we can be with these beautiful women.
Hey the Muslims get 70 virgins when the die, not bad huh?
Polycarp — one thing to keep in mind: in Heaven, they remain virgins. But, at least every woman in Heaven will be drop-dead gorgeous. I would be negligent if I did not state that, in spite of the beauty of the women, the most beautiful thing in Heaven is the Beatific Vision, God Himself.
Jim, thanks for your comments on this page. We need more people like you to defend the Church and Her teachings.
Regarding the references in the comments on masturbation, I find it unfortunate that Sister Margaret Farley’s book downplays the evil of masturbation. I am a recovering porn addict. I first found help online through the website of a fellow named Julian Lee (celibacy.org). He holds the view that abstaining from sexual release edifies men. While he has chosen to now focus on explaining Hindu scripture, previously his website also quoted Christian scripture to help men abstain. He provided a place online where men could leave comments regarding the positive changes in health, social interactions, and career success that would result from abstaining. Later, I found reuniting.com and yourbrainonporn.com which also provide a forums for men like me who are trying to abstain. It has been a battle and yes, I have fallen many times, but like a good soldier, i get up and continue to fight. I have seen positive changes in my life when I have abstained, so I can see why God through the scriptures wishes to warn men of the evils of this sin. I fear that porn and masturbation are destroying men on a grand scale like never before because of the power of the internet. The sad truth is, Sister Farley’s book could send confusing signals to a man who is recovering.
Danno — I am having trouble with this website again (rejecting my posts), so I’ll have to respond piecemeal to find out where the trouble is.
Thanks for your references — I probably will check some of them out.
I think the danger from Farley’s book is much greater than what you are saying.
You can see how even a couple of people on this site (Tony and Polycarp) intend to buy her book, and likely will use it to justify their own predilections.
I think Farley should be excommunicated, both as a service to her, but more importantly as a service to others, so that there can be no doubt in anyone’s mind about the errors of what she writes.
Jim did you happen to catch that Orign was condemned by a Council and noel he is revered? Same may happen to Farley. I hope it does
Won’t happen, Tony. In the meantime, I suggest you consider what the Church teaches about sexuality — for your own good. Take a look at the witness provided by Danno above — at the top of this exchange.
I am very happy for Danno, it is great that he is able to conquer his addiction and misuse of the Internet.
However, just as alcohol is not addictive to everyone so too sex and the Internet are not addictive to everon.
Tony — masturbation or pornography do not have to reach a level of addiction for them to be wrong. I’m surprised (but perhaps I shouldn’t be) that you’re equating alcohol and masturbation. Jesus’ first miracle was to make wine at Cana; but he never commanded anyone to masturbate.
With regard to your own situation: I’m assuming you use the Sacrament of Reconciliation on a regular basis. If you get a chance, you should check out Father John Harvey’s material on masturbation, some of which is available on the internet.
Not that it is anyone’s business but I do use the sacrament three time a year, Advent and Lent And while on retreat.
Tony — my comment was for Danno. With regard to all of us: John Paul II allegedly went daily — but, I guess he was a greater sinner than you. The Blessed Mother at Medjugorje recommends monthly Reconciliation. But, as we were saying yesterday, Reconciliation should occur after each instance of masturbation, even if not done with full consent of the will.
But Jim….if an individual masturbates out of compullson , or habit, and knows that for him it is not sin……….there is no need for confession and that person is free to receive communion. Even the real conservatives should acknowledge that one is only obliged to on fess Serious sin?
Not true, Tony — again, read the 1997 version of the Catechism, paragraph 2352 — culpability MAY be minimal, but the word “extenuated” has been removed from the 1994 version of the Catechism, to more precisely clarify the teachings of the Church.
Jim, indeed I do use the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. It is one the effective weapons in my “armamentarium.” Thank you so much for the translation of Matthew 5:48. I had never read this translation before and it is what I need to hear in this warfare that I am in. Finally, I will check out Father John Harvey’s material. God bless you.
God bless you too, Danno. And I am glad you are using Reconciliation — like you said, it is a very effective weapon against any sinful tendency, sexual or otherwise. That translation of Matthew 5:48 was taken from a Catholic Bible; if I am remembering correctly, the verse was rendered as it usually is in the Scripture, but the commentary for that verse noted the more correct translation. Besides, that translation is consistent with the rest of Scriputre. For example, somewhere in the OT it says the just man falls seven times a day (I don’t think this is literally true, but it is saying we all fall). Romans 3:23 says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. St. Paul complained that he did things he didn’t want to do, and didn’t do things he knew he should do. So it is clear that virtually everyone falls short of perfection, even on their deathbed. So, Jesus would have been smart enough about human nature to know that demanding perfection is unrealistic; rather, we are the clay and he the potter, and he molds us across our lifetime into greater degrees of virtue. And (I was just discussing this with a priest yesterday in Reconciliation) we actually develop virtue through our struggle with temptation; no struggle, no development of virtue. So, I really respect what you are doing. In Heaven, I’ll buy you a beer and we can catch up on other aspects of our lives and our pursuit of God.
He is very kind, and notes that purity is a lifetime project. He says to do exactly what you’re doing – when you fall, you get back in the saddle and try again.
Matthew 5:48, correctly translated, reads as follows: “Be ye in the process of being perfected, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” God only asks that we be on the path, not that we be perfect yet. Whatever perfecting we don’t get done in this life will be done in the next (Purgatory), on our way to Heaven.
So, I found a word this website is rejecting: chxstxty, where the first X = A, and the second X = I. Interesting, is it not? Perhaps this is the devil’s website? On a prior page, I found the following word was rejected: cxnstxtutional. Now, two good words rejected by this site: one an important Catholic precept, another an important American principle. Hmmmm, I truly wonder about this site.
Well, as this story:
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/excommunication-as-a-restorative-measure
, written by a faithful priest, makes clear, people like “Sister” Farley need to be excommunicated. And, all members of the Catholic Theological Society of America who support her, including Father William O’Neill, also need excommunication. As Father’s story makes clear, if the Church does nothing to such individuals, it gives the impression of acceptablity to what these people are saying / writing.
“Blind Obedience” is all the matters! How pathetic.
There are lots of psychologists out there who can help you with developing critical thinking skills. I bet if you really tried, you could think for yourself.
Well, Fed Up, I was away from the Church for many years, and thought for myself. God brought me back to His Church, and I thank Him profusely for that. I CHOOSE to believe what the Church teaches — I am not forced to believe it. Wise up, Fed Up.
Hanging On — your rebuke of my “blind obedience” is essentially identical to the typical critiques I have received when chatting with atheists. You are prideful, my friend — you are too prideful to humble yourself to have blind obedience, because you are just so smart and original. Eve and Adam were original too — and wrong.
Jimmy dear, you are very judgemental calling fed up prideful. Shame on you you hypocrite!
Polycarp — did I just detect that you were being judgmental of me being judgmental? Now THAT’S hypocritical. I am not hypocritical in that I never claimed not to be judgmental — in fact, we are called to be judgmental by Jesus Himself (Luke 17:3). By contrast, you, Polycarp, seem to imply by your rebuke of me for judgmentalness that you fancy yourself to be non-judgmental — which than is exactly why you are a hypocrit. BTW, yesterday’s ballgame with you was no fun — after I was up 13-0, you decided to take your ball and go home.
Yeah I took my marbles and went home but daddy toly me to go out agai n nod not run from the big bully and that you can’t have me excommunicated for being a heritic?
True, but if you were a public figure, I could initiate a canon lawsuit against you to have you excommunicated.