American nuns say questions not defiance
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The leader of the group representing most American nuns challenged the Vatican’s reasons for disciplining her organization, insisting that raising questions about church doctrine should not be seen as rebellion.
Sister Pat Farrell, president of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, said Monday that Catholics should be able to search for answers about faith without fear.
“I don’t think this is a healthy environment for the church,’’ Farrell said in a phone interview. “We can use this event to help move things in that direction – where it’s possible to pose questions that will not be seen as defiance or opposition.’’
Farrell’s remarks are her first since she met last week in Rome with the Vatican orthodoxy office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which concluded in April that the group had strayed broadly from church teaching.
The Vatican has appointed three American bishops to conduct a full-scale overhaul of the organization, sparking protests globally in support of the sisters.
In the Rome meeting, Farrell said she did not ask Vatican officials to drop their demand for reform. “I think we could clearly see in the tenor of the conversation that that was not an option,’’ she said.
She characterized the meeting as frank and open but difficult, and said she did not leave feeling more hopeful about what is ahead.
The Vatican has directed the bishops to oversee rewriting the statutes of the Leadership Conference, reviewing its plans and programs including approving speakers, and ensuring the group properly follows Catholic prayer and ritual.
“I don’t yet feel that we’re any further than just the initial conversation,’’ Farrell said.
The Leadership Conference of Women Religious, based in Silver Spring, Md., represents about 80 percent of the 57,000 nuns in the United States. [More]
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96 Comments
Jim, no healty American male is into man dominance and obsession with masturbation as you are.
One suggestion is that you accept your same sex attraction that you appear to be so desperately hidding. See the psychiatric help mentioned above.
You are also obsessed with masturbation, something which no healthy male is obsessed with today/
Get help Jim, accept yourself as a first step.
Hey Tony, you keep bringing masturbation up. And, how about if today you resolve to accept a little more responsiblilty for being a leader, rather than a complainer and wimp. Again, with regard to same-sex attractions: even if that were the case, you have asserted elsewhere that we have “come to a new understanding” of matters such as this. So, either you believe homosexuality represents sexual deviance or you do not. If you do make another post in this regard, I’ll take that as clear evidence that homosexuality is deviant — and on that point I agree with you.
A good healthy homosexual who adepts his sexuality and who he is and tries to build healthy relationships is far better off psychologically than someone whoo hides behind bhis sexuality and tries to dominate women and others.
That’s strange, Tony, how you remain fixated on homosexuality and masturbation — I wonder what that could mean? Try having courage and being a leader, Tony — quit being a complaining wimp who ducks his responsibilities as a man.
And Tony, the reason almost no other male brings up the issue of masturbation (except you) is that so many people are in the dark about this teaching of the Church. Our culture today says masturbation is good — and without clear and explicit teaching from parents or the Church, most assume it’s okay, buying the cultural lie.
Priests don’t ordain – know it all – bishops do – someone who has reached the third level of ordination – you might learn that in RCIA
Hey J.O., who said priests ordain? Tell me who posted that and what time. Perhaps you have a touch of macular degeneration? Or worse — early Alzheimer’s?
Okay, J.O., that was me — touchy, touchy. I knew that in grade school. Have you ever made a mistake in posting? Also, you seem to not be happy with me. What part of the Truth rubs you the wrong way? I can’t remember our last conversation, but I do remember you as being resistant to the Truth.
J.O., are you Recovering Catholic’s ex-husband?
Also, J.O., if you have something substative to say, then say it. Taking swipes at another person’s minor error (EVREYONE, even non-Catholics, knows priests do not ordain) is not substative. Tell me what I’ve said that you disagree with, and show me your evidence to support your position.
Read on Commentery on what st paul said and don’t be such a smart ass.
Tony — your comment is undecipherable — what commentary are you talking about? And talk about smart asses — you referring to the holiest men in the Church as “old farts” is very rude and smart-assed. It’s hard to see yourself as you are, is it not, Tony?
I don’t refer to the holiest men in the Chruch as “old farts.” By Old Farts I mean the guys in the Vatican.
Well then exactly to whom are you referring? Name names or name positions.
Andrew, with all due respeoct, you need to read more than just the right-wing Catholic propaganda! “The Rock of Truth” by Arthur Findlay may open your eyes a bit.
No I do not. If your definition of right wing Catholic propaganda is the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church then that’s your problem. I’ll call it what it is, the truth!
Current score in the top of the seventh: Andrew 33, Recovering 0.
Every Catholic priest was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by a previous bishop going all the way back in time to the first bishops who were appointed by St. Peter who was chosen to lead the Church by Jesus Christ Himself. You may not personally agree with the decisions made at the Vatican but if you are a Catholic then you are obliged to respect the authority of the true church of Jesus Christ.
Perfectly said, Andrew.
Jim, if your idea of the “holiest” men in the church are those power-hungry political thugs all jockeing for position in the curia, then God help us all!!
As if, Recovering, you possibly could know the motives of men whom you’ve never met or spoken with. For married couples, spouses often misinterpret each other. How on Earth do you expect to correctly interpret the men in the Vatican? Talk about being judgmental and jumping to conclusions. Pathetic, Recovering.
Hello everyone — the mindlessness and disrespect of Jim toward everything and everybody who do not share his robotic catholicism is truly numbing. I’m signing off this comment board.
Please don’t go Carl, we need you to fight this fightened psycho.
Bye-bye, Carl. May you repent and come to your senses. This is what rigid babies like Carl do, BTW, when they can’t win an argument — they take their ball and go home. The mindlessness of which Carl accuses me is actually a quality of himself — he can’t stand it when someone disagrees with him, and he can’t defend his positions. So, I understand why he is leaving.
Jim, you have the impression you are presenting arguments when in fact you’re just robotically repeating what has been said without actually understanding in any meaningful way what you are doing.
Give me an example, Carl.
And BTW, I am called disrespectful by Carl, but notice that Tony immediately thereafter called me a “frightened psycho.” Now I ask you, who is disrespectful?
My recommendation,Jim,is take a course or more in Church history and prayerfully read the New Testament with an open mind concentrating on Jesus – the Way.
Marion — take a guess at which Christian group does exactly what you are recommending to me? The Protestants. This is why two Protestants, reading the same Scripture passage, both claiming to be inspired by the same Holy Spirit, come up with diametrically opposed conclusions. I am not interested in being my own pope, but apparently you are. I’m sorry for you, Marion. May the Mass I attend and the Communion I receive this evening provide God’s grace to you, so that you can come back to the Truth.
Marion — if you feel compelled to respond to my post, please answer my question first — how can two Protestants who take your advice come up with diametrically opposed positions from the same Scripture passage? For example, Protestants reject the establishment of the Sacrament of Reconciliation when, in Scripture, Jesus said to the apostles, “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” As a Catholic Christian, I am convinced that Jesus was indeed establishing the sacrament at that juncture. So, notice the problem when everyone is their own pope: there is no uniformity, and there is, of certaintly, error in at least one if not all interpretations. So again, don’t give me some mindless prattle if you respond to me; first, answer the question I am posing here.
Marion, in addition to Church History, Jim should take a course in Morality, and in the use of Reason and Faith.
It would hurt if he also took a course in being understand and pastoral.
Hey Tony, you are just posting blather. As I asked Marion, how about if you answer my question instead of just taking pot shots?
I think it would be helpful for a “peanut” review of Church History for many to become acquainted with the reasons for not just being simple minded and accepting the mandates out of Rome without clarification and discussion as to their authentic meaning and/or purpose.
Marion — if you want to understand the authentic meaning and purpose of anything the Church teaches, you don’t do it by getting together and discussing it. You do it by shutting your mouth and opening your ears. When you pray, Marion, do you ever listen for God’s response to you? Or do you just tell Him things, as if He doesn’t already know them?
God is not interested in you defining dogma, Marion — because He loves you, He is interested in your heart, and if you are listening to Him. Through what vehicle does God speak to the world in 2012? Through the Vatican hierarchy and their Magisterial teachings.
Marion, a suggestion — get into an RCIA group, so that you can understand the “authentic meaning and / or purpose” of the “mandates out of Rome.” Suggestion two: when you speak, make sure it is a question seeking clarification, not your comment on what you think the Church should be teaching as dogma.
You are the Church, the Bride of Christ, He gave His life for you…Let us try to show a little love for one another..The R.C.I.A. was for me a great learning experience & since entering the Chruch, I have been studying the scriptures with “Catholic Scripture International” I hope my post will be of some help to my brothers & sisters in Christ. Blessings.
More correctly, Marilyn, Jesus is the vine, we are the branches — notice that we are not the vine, He is. There is no life outside of Him. So, people like Marion who want to break from the Church of Jesus are breaking from the vine, and they do so at their great peril.
Marilyn — in case you think I’m not showing love for Marion — actually, I am, but I am loving her in a masculine way. As Benedict XVI said, love is NOT greeting card sentimentality.
Jim- 1Cor.13:4 Love is patient and kind,love is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things…
Marilyn — Hebrews 12:6: for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges. Quoting Benedict XVI, love is NOT greeting card sentimentality. The Church has an overly feminized understanding of love. Jesus loved the money changers, even though he turned over their tables. Just before doing that, on his way to Jerusalem and while hungry, he found a tree that did not have fruit, even though it was not the time of year to produce. What did Jesus do? He cursed it, and it withered to the ground. Also, check out St. Louis de Montfort’s life — he was very holy, and had a tremendous devotion to the Blessed Mother. In one instance, he literally beat up a bunch of drunks who were making fun of him while he was preaching. You can find documentation of this in Edward Doherty’s “Wisdom’s Fool”, page 17 I believe. So, you can love in your feminine way, I’ll love in a masculine way.
Jim: As in his letter to the Corinthians, Paul again reminds us that Love should prevail:” My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by Him. For the Lord disciplines him whom He LOVES, and chastises every son whom he receives.If we read just a little further Vese l4 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
That’s right, Marilyn — I don’t see your point. Part of God’s love for us is manifested in his discipline of us. And, with regard to living in peace — sure, we all want that. But it is irresponsible to allow others to attack the true Church or to espouse their heretical beliefs without being challenged. At one point, Jesus said He did not come to bring peace to the Earth, but rather fire (I don’t know the exact reference for that, but I’m certain that is Scriptural). Also, read one verse further in Hebrews 12: “See to it that no one be deprived of the grace of God, that no bitter root spring up and cause trouble, through which many may become defiled.” This is precisely what I am doing — seeing to it that no bitter root spring up. Many posters here, like Recovering Catholic, are bitter whith the Church, and can lead others astray by their bitterness. So again, Marilyn, I love in a masculine way, you can go ahead and continue to love in a feminine way. God made the two sexes complementary; we need to gifts of both, not just the gifts of women.
I’m not so sure you love in a masculine way. Real men are in touch with their feminine side which it seems, you are not.
I think that perhaps you are not ACCEPTING of your same sex attraction and thus you are taking it out on women.
Why don’t you offer a substantive comment, Tony? Unless you want to talk about your lack of leadership.
The point is the Lord disciplines those who He LOVES. Are you showing LOVE for others in these postings?
The answer is yes, Marilyn — but you don’t recognize it as love because we have so denigrated masculinity and masculine traits. Scripture is clear (Hebrews) about the importance of discipline. Also, look up Luke 17:3 — at that juncture, Jesus commands us to “rebuke” our brother (or sister) if he sins.
Unfortunately, Marilyn, the men-hating feminists of the 20th century were very effective in helping society denigrate masculinity and masculine traits. We can see what happens to society when men’s gifts are cut out of the equation — complete chaos and disorder in society. This fact is documented in cross-cultural research of multiple societies, including non-Western ones, by anthropologists.
Jim, what is your own problem with sexuality? Do you have same sex attractions which you can’t handle and take it out on women?
And why this obsession with masturbation? Most mature men don’t get aa hung up on it.
The Blessed Mother told one of the Fatima visionaries in a private revelation (I believe it was Jacinta) that more souls go to hell for sins of the flesh than for any other reason. Hell is FOREVER, Tony. I have an interest in helping people obtain salvation. So, it is not just masturbation, but other sexual sins as well, including in particular homosexuality. With regard to issues with women: given the way society has redefined relationships between the sexes, and devalued masculinity, we have created a massive social problem. Over 40% of babies born out of wedlock, and cohabitation being very common today. So, I am interested in restoring order. And, as a man, God has given all men that responsibility to be leaders, including of the women. And, BTW, talk to real women — they’ll tell you they love it when a man takes charge. It’s just that the feminists have told her she shouldn’t feel that way, and it’s also because it is very difficult to find a man who hasn’t given up his headship. If this was 1850, no one would think I have an issue with women. Everyone would say, “Yes, and your point is…?” Because what I’m saying would be obvious to everyone in 1850.
But this 2012 not 1950, our understanding of the roles of women and men have expanded. Women are seen as co equals with men. I think your sexuality and your abitlity to interact with women is stuck in the 50″s.
Tony, I said 1850, not 1950 – -because even by 1950, things were coming unglued. God created us male and female, and our gender tracks us into eternity. The roles for men and women were assigned by God, and they are not changeable. Yes, society has drifted from God’s plan, big-time, and you can see the results: a divorce rate around 50%, over 40% of babies born out of wedlock, and many couples believing marriage is unnecessary and just cohabiting, a less-than-ideal environment in which to raise children.
Also, Tony, since you post at 3:00 A.M., don’t you think you should be getting to bed now?
Also, I hope your belief in the primacy of conscience has not resulted in you concluding, like pseudo-sister Farley, that masturbation is not a sin for you.
With regard to my having same-sex attractions, Tony — really, do you think anyone gay male from San Francisco ever would say what I am saying? They are so woosy and feminized, they wouldn’t have the testicles to say what I am saying.
I know some gay men who are so nonaccepting of their homosexuality that they spout the same stuff you do.
Think what you will, Tony — and I will continue to point out that you are ducking your responsiblity as a man, not being willing to be a leader. My assertion about you is easily validated – - all one needs to do is examine anything you say, including what you will say in response to this post.
Tony — you know, your comment about me having same-sex attractions seems to insuate that same-sex attractions represent deviance. I’m surprised at you, Tony — I thought you and your liberal friends have achieved a new understanding of homosexuality, that it’s okay. If that’s true, when then do you even raise the issue with me? What relevance does it have to the discussion?
CCC372 Man and Woman were made “for each other”- not that God left them half-made and incomplete: He created them to be a communion of persons, in which each can be “helpmate” to the other, for they are EQUAL as persons (bone of my bones..) and complementary as masculine and feminine….etc
No, in fact, Marilyn, you are misunderstanding what the Catechism is saying. It is saying the exact opposite of your contention. In fact, men and women ARE half-made — men need women to complete them, and women need men to complete them. Neither sex is complete in itself. If it was, there would have been no reason for God to have two genders. If you say, oh yes there is, how can you have babies with one sex? The answer is simple: God can do anything He wants, could have designed the universe and reproduction any way He wanted. So, yes, men and women are equal in dignity, but we have very different roles, per our Creator.
Here’s some additional evidence that the two sexes are very different: men don’t find masculine women attractive. We like feminine women. And, conversely (and you could attest to this) women like masculine men, they don’t like sissy men.
Got to go,I am in need of some beauty sleep.
Marilyn — are you the famous swimmer, now in your mid-70s?
I think it was Pius XII who lamented in a private conversation: “Oh, why can’t the laity be the sheep they used to be and obey the curial hierarchs?”(not a quote). But no, the laity is enlightened now, can read and think for themselves, determine for themselves. some (like Pius XII) would prefer the unenlightened sheep-like behavior of old, based on a tradition of myths and tales.
Yes, Carl, and Eve and Adam also became enlightened after they were disobedient, ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and defined for themselves good and evil — just like you, Carl. You are a modern-day Adam.
Should these intelligent, well-educated, extremely competent women be HAPPY that an out-of-date and out-of-touch, self-aggrandized, narrow-minded overlord who dictates orders like an absolute MONARCH is taking an interest in them?
Look at this — all the Vatican is asking (at least based on what is in this article) is to approve speakers and approve prayer practices. The very fact that the LCWR would have problems with that shows how far from the fold they have strayed. They should be HAPPY the Vatican is taking such an interest in them. They should be HAPPY that the Vatican wants to ensure they are on the straight-and-narrow. They should be HAPPY that the Vatican’s involvement will increase the likelihood that they will attain Heaven. Matthew 16:26: “What does it profit a man (or the LCWR) if he gains the whole world (gets to have crazy speakers at his conferences) but loses his soul?”
Jim, why not save us all the trouble you cause. Just submit a statement “You know what I think.” and spare all that disrespect for conversation and personalities.
Once again we can compare the relationship of the LCWR to the children in a highly dysfunctional family into total powere and control.
Time for the old farts in the Vatican to wake up and smell the capachino and leave our well educated, healthy, mature, well educated, deeply spiritual American Catholic nuns alone to self determination to work hand in hand in ministering in the Chruch.
Tony — your disrespect for Vatican hierarchy is again blatantly obvious — “old farts?” And, why is “self determination” so important to you and the nuns? Eve and Adam self-determined, and look where it got them. The real interest of you and the LCWR should be doing God’s holy Will.
The old farts in the Vatican, will earn my respect when they treat the laity and particulary the women religious with the same respect they expect themselves.
Not ordaining women is not tantamount to disrespecting them, Tony. Women are not equipped to be clergy.
Besides not ordaining them, the old farts want to rule over them and lord over them like they were subserveant to them.
Well, Tony, God made women to be subject to men. Genesis 3:16: “Your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” Women were not equipped by God to be in leadership roles. They are the connectors, the linkers, but not the leaders.
I am appalled by your insulting and stupid remarks. The ideas in the Old Testament were around orally a long time before the Hebrews during the Babylonian captivity, centuries B.C., wrote them down in scrolls and organized them into a collection that became their Hebrew Bible. It was a man’s world then, and everything in that area of the world was written by men with their warped views of women. The Hebrew culture was patriarchal. Study a matriarachal society and you will see something quite different regarding women.
Well, Recovering, when cross-cultural studies have been conducted by anthropologists, they all find the same thing: without fathers around, mothers can’t do their jobs very well at all. I’m sorry you don’t like God’s plan for women. Your rejection of this truth, I am sure, is part of your unhappiness and unrest.
Jim, your slurs calling other people unhappy is something psychologists call “projection.” It fits you like a glove.
Recovering — would you consider the designation “ignorant bigot” to be a slur? Just checking. Someone called me that slur recently. Get a male therapist, Recovering, and be open to his help. Make sure, though, that he is not a brainwashed male who also has drank the Kool-Aid.
In the Vatican’s eye what equips one to be clergy a penis?
No, Tony, what equips one to be clergy is God — and yes, God made the leaders to have a penis.
St Paul says in God there is no east or west, north or south, gentile or jew, male or female.
Well, Tony, in Heaven (for those of us who make it there by God’s grace), resurrected bodies will be either male of female. Do you really beleive Jesus in Heaven is not a man? Do you believe the Blessed Mother is not a woman?
You need psychiatric help.
Did Margaret Thatcher, Mrs. Ghandi, Hilary Clinton, Mrs. Merkel, or all of the Queens down through history have one? How about all the female senators? You are thinking with the wrong “head,” Jim!
Did Margaret Thatcher, Mrs. Ghandi, Hilary Clinton, Mrs. Merkel, or all of the Queens down through history have one? How about all the female senators? You are thinking with the “wrong head,” Jim!
Did Margaret Thatcher, Mrs. Ghandi, Hilary Clinton, Angela Merkel, or all of the Queens down through history have one? How about all the female senators? You are thinking with the “wrong head,” Jim!
Recovering — changing the subject — NO MAN is attracted to butchy, Helen Reddy-type women. And, since your urge as a woman is for a man (Genesis 3:16) — even if you’ve supressed this urge — you’ll never have a happy man in your life with your attxtude.
How dare you, you ignorant biggott!
Are you talking to me, Recovering? What don’t you like about my post? With regard to psychiatric help: I suspect you currently are in therapy for your bitterness, but it wouldn’t at all surprise me if your therapist just reinforces your self-pity. Too bad for you.
Look at your fury, Recovering. Who do you think is responsible for your bitterness? The Catholic hierarchy which you so despise? It’s always easier to blame someone for your pathetic condition, isn’t it? However, the problem is that you never will resolve your bitterness until you realize that you are responsible for how you feel. I’m sure you voted for Obama. You and all the other liberals all think the same: it’s somebody else’s fault for my problems, and I want others to fix it for me. The problem with that position is that it makes you helpless and dependent — and your cure depends on others helping you in the way you deem appropriate. Even then, though, you’re never happy. Now, would you like me to call you an “ignorant bigot” like you called me? Bigot because you reject the headship of men and their authority over women?
Given your fury, Recovering, undoubtedly you are a feminist with real issues with male headship. You need to be de-programmed from the 20th century feminist nonsense which was quite effective in driving the divorce rate through the roof. My guess is your faminism is the reason your marriage failed as well. Men don’t like women like you, Recovering, regardless of what they say — because men too have been brainwashed by the faminists. But I am telling you definitively, no man is attracted to a woman like you.
Thank God, you aren’t! I’d get an order of protection to keep you away!
Well, Recovering, I’d like to continue this happy exchange, but I must now go to Mass, conducted by a priest ordained by a priest from the Vatican hierarchy. That is where true peace lies — receiving Jesus when you are not in a state of mortal sin. I’ll talk to you later this evening.
Jim, if you would think a little before you post your inflammatory remarks, you wouldn’t have such interpersonal relationship problems. Good luck & Good night.